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The Problem With Perfect
The Problem With Perfect
What Is A Sound Bath? (And Why You Might Need One) With Catina Topash
We’ve explored many types of therapy on this podcast—from talk therapy to yoga and everything in between—but one powerful, ancient healing technique we’ve known little about is sound therapy.
In this episode, we explore the surprising power of sound therapy with yoga therapist and sound healing expert Catina Topash. We sit down with Catina to unpack the science behind sound baths, how vibrational healing works, and why frequencies might just be the reset our nervous system needs.
Whether you’re curious, skeptical, or already obsessed with sound healing, this conversation will open your ears—and your heart—to a new form of wellness.
Special Guest: Catina Topash
Catina is a Certified Yoga Therapist (C-IAYT), E-500 RYT, YogaFit Yoga Therapy faculty member, Sound Healer, YogaFit Senior Master Trainer, and has specialty yoga training in trauma, chronic pain, nervous system disorders, heart disease, diabetes, back pain, pre/post natal, injury prevention and recovery, positive psychology, yoga for seniors, and other specialty areas. In addition, Catina holds over 25 additional certifications including American Council on Exercise (ACE) Personal Trainer and DK Body Pilates.
Along with her husband Bryan, Catina owns Breathe@JJ's Folly Retreat center and Bed & Breakfast in Fayette, MO, and is the Wellness Director at Wilson's Fitness in Columbia, MO. Catina is passionate about helping individuals live their best lives and empowering them to find their innate healing and happiness. Catina lives each day with gratitude, in a way that brings santosha, a Sanskrit term for contentment, to her life.
Hey friends, welcome to The Problem with Perfect. What is The Problem with Perfect? It's the myth that if we just do more, be more, and have more, our lives will be perfect. I'm Robin May, a journalist, wife, mother, and most days, a faith-filled Christian.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm Denise Bickel, a clinical therapist, educator, mom, Mimi, and spirit-filled follower. As recovering perfectionists, we promise to be transparent and real and to share the wisdom of trusted advisors and guests. So pull
SPEAKER_03:up a chair and have a seat. There's always a place for you at our table. Welcome back to another episode of the problem with perfect Denise. That's my squeal of excitement because I am so excited about this episode. Oh
SPEAKER_00:gosh, I am too. We've been working on getting our guest with us for several months.
SPEAKER_03:We have. Sometimes some people are worth the wait. There you go. That is the case for our guest tonight. Before I tell you about our guest, I do want to give our listeners a little backstory. i was able to to bring together several of my friends and have a private sound bath with our guest katina and for those of you who are like what did she just say she had a private bath with her friends yes i had a private sound bath of my friends i was bummed denise because you were one day off from getting to be there i was so that would have been even better but um I have been blessed to get to do this. This is my second time and it was extra special getting to do it with other people and getting to talk about it and kind of follow up and get other people's impressions because you're always like, was my experience what other people experience? But I'm getting ahead of myself because I just want our listeners to know that you're in for a real treat today. We are going to talk about, as we do with all things wellness, an area of wellness that we haven't talked about on the podcast. And that is this exploration of sound therapy.
SPEAKER_00:Correct. And, you know, I have to tell you that it took you explaining to me what that experience was like for me to know that, oh, I did do that once at the Denver Botanic Garden. But I think for most people, this may be some new information that
SPEAKER_03:Well, I agree. And I'll even add to that, like, I've done it twice now. And so I've had the experience, but I still have all these questions about it. So I'm so excited that we get the opportunity to ask all those questions and more, because there's so much more to it. Literally, you just close your eyes and you experience it. And then, you know, you open up your eyes and it's over. And literally I could have stayed after and talked to Katina forever. So we are so fortunate to have Katina on as our guest today to just help us understand what really is sound therapy, how does sound heal, What is a sound bath? And what's the science behind all of it? And for those of you that are still like, I don't know what a sound bath is, we're going to talk about that too. So all things sound therapy and sound bath is on the table for today. And for the listeners that are near and dear to our yoga hearts, and we've been talking about the yamas and the niyamas this year, yay, and my yoga journey, you've heard all about Katina is central to I would say my journey into becoming a wellness coach and now dipping my toe into yoga. So let me just tell you a little bit about her personally. She's like a doctor that has like all the initials after her name, and most people don't know what those initials mean, but they mean that she's done a lot of work. So Katina Topash is a certified yoga therapist. She's E500RYT, a YogaFit therapy faculty member. Did you get that, faculty member? A sound healer. a yoga fit senior master trainer, and she has specialty yoga training in trauma, chronic pain, nervous system disorders, heart disease, diabetes, back pain, pre and postnatal, injury prevention and recovery, positive psychology, yoga for seniors, and other specialty areas. In addition, Katina holds over 25 certifications from everything to being an ace personal trainer to DK body Pilates. And if that's not enough, Along with her husband, Brian, Katina owns Breathe at JJ's Folly Retreat Center and a bed and breakfast in Fayette, Missouri. She's also, and this is where I've intersected with her, the wellness director at Wilson's Fitness in Columbia. Katina is passionate about helping individuals live their best life and empowering them to find their own innate healing and happiness. So Katina... Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and talking to us about all things sound therapy. Thank
SPEAKER_02:you for having me. It's one of my favorite things to talk about. So I'm excited to share.
SPEAKER_03:Love it. I got to tell you, Katina, I've known you for a long time. And I remember, you probably don't, but I remember when you interviewed me. Oh
SPEAKER_02:my gosh, I don't remember. I
SPEAKER_03:do. Like, I don't remember a lot of job interviews, but I remember that one. And I've got to tell you, your cat behind you is cracking me up. I know. Such a sweet baby. Sorry that you can't see the cute cat. I remember asking you how you got into teaching group fitness and you told me that about being a master flutist and I was like wow like how how things work right so I will tell you that I do obviously knew that you had a background in music but aside from that I didn't didn't and don't really know how it came to be that you started using sound as a part of all these other healing practices that you integrate with your clients at Wilson. So could you just share a little bit about your background and then how it led you to sound therapy? How did it all come together? I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's a long, long story. But so yes, I have a master's degree in music and flute performance and have been doing music my whole life I like to share that I feel like I kind of started because my dad actually used to play in a band and so when I was really young I remember he and I he would have his guitar out and he'd be singing and I would just curl up next to him and sing along and Yeah. So I've always had a deep, deep love and connection to, to sound and music and vibration. And I don't remember, I think it was probably kindergarten or maybe first grade. Um, the, the elementary music teacher was like, Hey guys, I'm offering piano lessons. And so I asked my, I begged my parents and we didn't have a piano. So long story short, we ended up getting a piano off like the street. Essentially. It was not a good piano we drug it into the house I think we paid five dollars a lesson for the piano lessons but that was that was the start and then yeah then of course went through high school and and just loved music I loved a lot of things you know fitness and I've always done all of those things too luckily going to a small school you can explore and do all the things and but chose the path of music and Started off music education at the University of Missouri and then decided I want to be a performance major because I just love to play and I wanted to play. And so then that's where I got led to Colorado and ended up getting a master's degree in flute performance. And and I loved it. And I'm so grateful for all of the musical experiences and the everything that I've learned and my ability to play and and even the music education part because I was able to learn different instruments, which is part of what I still do today.
SPEAKER_01:But,
SPEAKER_02:of course, you focus in and narrow in when you get to the performance. But I'll tell you something kind of funny. When I introduce myself to, or not myself, but introduce sound healing to students that I'm teaching in the sound healing programs, I always say I'm a recovering musician. performance musician, because that's a whole different world than what I'm doing now. And so that has been a personal journey for me to move from Being a person who had to practice for eight hours a day in a practice room in order to go do a jury and get judged and critiqued and then told no a million times. And that is definitely not what I'm doing anymore. But but I'm grateful, of course, for all that experience. And part of that transition is when I went to the crossing. And so at that point, I was teaching music, but still was kind of definitely in that performance mindset, because that's what I was, you know, that's what I learned. And I was able to start that transitionary phase of like, oh, wait. you love music, you, you, you love to sing, you love to play, you love to do all these things. And it's not just to get a grade or to, um, get the, get the job or, or whatever it might be. Cause I did that all through college. I worked, all my work was playing and I got paid, um, to play. So, so there I was actually, I just offered up, you know, as my tithing, if you want to call it that, to play on the worship team. And that was lovely. And I did that for a long time and super grateful for that experience. But what led me then to sound healing was on some of that path, I started, you know, as you said, I was into fitness. And that was kind of a carry through too. And then my journey started shifting with my mom.
SPEAKER_01:who
SPEAKER_02:you know, she was diagnosed first with Crohn's disease. And so she was doing fitness with me. And then we decided we need to look at it from a little bit different viewpoint. So again, performance-based fitness was my original. I was a triathlete. I was a bodybuilder. I got my pro card in bodybuilding, which is insane to even think about that. But all of those things, you know, they all started in the performance realm. And now I love where I am. and utilizing health and fitness and wellness and music and sound for healing. Um, so yeah, so the journey started with mom to try to help her become healthier and, um, during her journey. And so yoga became the primary emphasis of what I wanted to do. So then I was already down my path of doing some yoga and she started doing with me. And then I went, I found, um, yoga fit who, which is who I'm now a faculty member for, and they have a yoga therapy program. So then I pursued that And along that path, I realized that in the yogic tradition, way beyond that, which we can talk more about, but because I was studying yoga, there's an ancient system of yoga called nada yoga which is the yoga of sound and so i was like what you mean i get to take my all my loves my love of music and sound and health and healing and wellness and unite them and so that was that was it that was like okay this is what i'm gonna do so so here you are here i am
SPEAKER_03:and you recently just wrote I should know the jargon, but you just wrote curriculum, correct, for YogaFit around the science. I did,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. So in yoga, you get a 200-hour, 200-RYT. You can have a 500-RYT. You can become a yoga therapist. But then there's also what we just call specialty certificates. So I, along with one other person, started the pathway to it. But I wrote the last three manuals. So I wrote a manual called Therapeutic Applications of Sound and Mantra. And I wrote a manual called Biofield Tuning. And then I actually just this year wrote a training called Embodying the Voice. And so that kind of sealed the 100-hour sound healer certificate. And part of that is a practicum. So then now I also, when people sign up for the practicum to become a sound healer, sound therapist, I get to mentor them while they're going through that process.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:it's
SPEAKER_00:wonderful. Oh, my goodness. And in your spare time... I don't know. I feel like such a slacker right now. So I guess I would like to just start from the very beginning, Katina. What exactly is Sound Bath? And is there a history behind it as far as is it Native American? Is it Indian? Where does that generate from? So
SPEAKER_02:sound baths, that term is modern. Sound healing is ancient through all cultures and all philosophies and religions. So that was part of what I wanted to uncover, especially with the therapeutic opposite sound mantra that I wrote, that it's not just a current idea because it feels like it's like, oh, it's new, but there's nothing new about sound healing. You know, go back to the ancient aborigines of australia um you know go back to china go back to to russia go back to yes india and then you know even the newer the united states of um when we come together for healing and there's so many beautiful beautiful stories of how different cultures and different tribes and different groups of humans use sound in um in healing modalities and you know i believe that we've kind of come where the new current sound bath and sound therapy is just coming full circle because sound and vibration used to be the healing modality just you know i mentioned the crossing and going to um worship services and things like that what do we do we lift up our voices you know so all vibration is is therapeutic so sound baths is kind of just a fun terminology that is newer. So the bath in particular, usually that term is used when we do like a group sound session and it is therapeutic because sound is therapeutic and the way we program it and put the instruments together and make the journey of the sound bath is therapeutic in and of itself. And then that's different from if I work one on one with people in sound therapy, because then that's a specific intention of healing modality for that individual. So when you do a sound bath, sometimes there's intentions, you know, like almost always I'll pick something, whether it be, um, you know, summer solstice or gratitude or, you know, I'll often weave in, um, different themes and different ideas to set an intention set, uh, um, for the group. And then the sound bath kind of follows that path. and uses different instruments that kind of elicit that journey of the sound bath. So bath is because I've had so many funny questions and comments about what do I need to do when I come to the sound bath? Well, yes, you come fully clothed. It is not an actual bath that you get into. And there's no water. Well, there could be. I have done water sound baths as well. But the bath idea is that bath is water and vibration is a wave. So vibration is an oscillating wave form. And so waves remind us of the ocean, which makes us think of washing ourselves in the waves of sound. So that's kind of where the bath piece came in. Fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:So when people are going to sound therapy, sound bath, what can they expect to happen?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, good question. So let's start with sound bath. If they're coming into a sound bath, like I said, there may be a theme, so they might be aware of that. Sometimes they might get some things like I've offered, you know, healing chakra crystals or things like that to go along with the sound bath or essential oils or there might be things that are offered but in general they can just expect to come and create a really peaceful space for themselves so i always invite people to bring cushions and pillows and blankets and everything that they can have to help themselves be physically comfortable so that they can experience the sound with as little distraction as possible because we're trying to move beyond just the physical sensory awareness you'll receive that as well but there's a whole different realm of vibrational awareness and mental emotional awareness and even for some spiritual awareness that comes when they're in a sound bath and it is very different for each person and I think it very much depends on who you're taking the sound bath with because everybody has different experiences and takes on how to present a sound bath so I can speak from how I deliver them and so essentially you're going to go through a journey of kind of you know you can kind of relate it to like a workout in that you're going to start with just a gentle easing in and I think of nervous system response as I'm as I begin a practice like I'm trying to bring you into a more peaceful space we might do breath work first we might do a little bit of movement even first just depends on what the intention is and that's the kind of eases into the the sound bath and then the sound bath will start with just a kind of moving us through it's almost you can also think about it like going to bed you know how Some people just fall asleep instantly and go right into REM or deep sleep. Well, I like to think, well, let's take them through that waking phase first because we're moving through brainwave states also. And then we get into the meat, what I'll call the meat of, or the peak, I'll call it that, the peak of the sound bath where there might be things that create a little bit more of a nervous system response. It might be something that takes them on a brainwave journey on a REM journey there might be things for some that feel a little bit like a stress response not always just but sometimes that happens but all of the intention if that comes is to build a resiliency in the nervous system so knowing you know that starting off that ease and then knowing that it's going to come back full full full circle and to bring them really back into that deep parasympathetic, deep rest and digest towards the end. So then when they come out, they feel like they have actually taken a journey. And a lot of times people don't think they were awake the whole time. But I would say the majority of the time, people don't go into deep sleep phase. They stay in that theta alpha brainwave state where even though they may not know exactly that they're conscious, they're still there. And, of course, they're still receiving the benefits no matter what. Because every time I say, okay, we're going to start to come back, they're like, oh, where did I go? I'm back. Oh, my goodness.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. You've never had to go over and shake someone and say.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have. I mean, some people do fall asleep and like actual sleep and that's okay. You know, I always tell people, if you fall asleep, that's just what you needed. That's what you needed. You know, um, I do get snoring sometimes. If there's a snorer, I'll just, I let them know ahead of time. I might do just a gentle tap just to kind of bring you back from the space that you were in, but no big deal. Just, you know, where you went. And yeah, so people do. And that's completely different from a sound one-on-one session.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Yeah. And just to kind of wrap up this conversation, Can you walk us through the instruments that you use? Are they all crystal balls? Are they chimes? What exactly, what makes them different? And are there differences depending on the purpose of the event or the experience?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, there's a lot of different things that you can use. Now, again, depending on whose sound bath you go to, I've seen sound baths where there are just crystal bowls. I've seen sound baths where there are just Tibetan bowls. So you could experience a variety of things. The way I approach it is, and this is in some of the work that I've written down for my students, is there is an intention of even from the beginning of time with this particular instrument. There is a way that certain materials and sounds and metals and crystals affect us from a, I call it, is it activating or is it calming? Those are kind of some of the things I think. There are certain frequencies. So we are a composite instrument. body of frequency we are energy bodies um that is that's not a woo-woo thing to say that is a you know physics and science um based background thing to say that everything in our bodies has a specific frequency frequency that it operates most um functionally and so At the end of the day, what I'm really trying to do with the person, whether it be in a sound bath or one-on-one, is to create harmony within them. and and so i look at disease as dissonance disease disease is dissonance so if we have if we have a most optional optimal functioning body that is operating in harmony so all of our systems are cooperating well together whether that be physical emotional energetic or whether that be my heart and my gallbladder, you know, whatever it is in me that might be experiencing dissonance, that's where disease comes. So through the principles of what's called resonance, entrainment, coherency, that's what the sound does. So the intention behind each instrument, the intention behind the frequencies is to help the human become more harmonious. and let us act for disease or to help move disease or disease.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And you bring me to a comment that one of the participants in our group said. She said, I don't fully understand the science behind it, but I now get what yoga teachers mean by being in the moment. So can you help us understand how that sound therapy affects the brave and the nervous system so that it helps us get in the moment? And that might be, that might be a loaded question, but like dumb it down for us.
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah. So how does it affect the brain and the nervous system? So again, everything is, is energy. Um, Um, everything is vibratory. So let's say we're not in the moment. Let's say we're worried about something. We have anxiety about something to come. Well, that anxiety is a different frequency. That anxiety is a different, maybe brainwave heart rate because anxiety brings elevated heart rate. Anxiety brings us into different spaces. Um, So let's say we're having regrets or thoughts about the past that's not keeping us in the moment all of those things that aren't in the moment are keeping us out of this moment which is the most harmonious moment we could be in and in its deep awareness to awareness of what our thoughts are doing awareness of how our body is responding to those emotions really you know I just I just led health care to this weekend which is all about the energy body and you know we talked about T fields and L fields and all this really deep quantum physics But all it boils down to is that we are all vibratory beings, and when we have these emotions that come in, these thoughts that come in, what we call in yoga the monkey mind, the chitta vritti, it's disrupting us from a vibratory standpoint. And so the sounds bring us into harmony, bring us into coherency, which then helps us to become... more aware of the moment that we're in. It helps to clear the mind chatter. Yeah, so essentially it's harmonizing. And some of the terminology, like entrainment is an example. of some of the scientific language. So in resonance, when two fluctuating vibrations are operating at different vibrational speeds or frequencies, which is what dissonance is, which is what disease is, the sounds can actually entrain, they can bring those dissonant energies back into harmony, meaning the vibrations start to operate at the same place that they operate most functionally. So then the whole system is in this vibratory harmony and there's nothing else that exists. And at the end of the day, it's about becoming vibratorily harmonious with God, divine universe, whatever the description, because everything operates in a vibrational system. And when we're out of sync with that, then that's when worry, fear, anxiety, past, present, or past, future, all that comes into play.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And how can we not be out of sync? It feels like...
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_03:You know,
SPEAKER_02:everything takes us out of sync.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yeah. Well, and I just want to say for people that are listening that are still sort of skeptic, and like you said earlier, you know, it might sound, you know, woo woo, foo foo, whatever. Just share a little bit about the science based evidence that supports what you're doing. as far as the healing that it provides for whether it be anxiety or trauma or some of these other diseases that you work with clients to help heal them.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, from a science-based standpoint, let's look at things like ultrasounds, EEGs, EKGs. hrvs i mean that's all science that's being done in the western medical world to recognize that we have energy coming out of us and that we can and waveforms and that we can utilize um these waveforms to get information and that's what vibration is vibration is information in wave waveform and and so the challenge i think for most people is to go from being like oh i i believe in ultrasound i believe that this is this waveform works but i it's harder for me to believe that a gong is a waveform and and that my body can be connected or affected by that um so So that's one way to kind of look at it is that the modern vibratory model is more electronic based, I guess that's the word, versus like ancient sound healing systems. But they both work. They both work in the same capacity. And there is a lot of research being done now with tuning forks and sound bowls and just a couple of examples and the voice. I mean, that's the one I just wrote is embodying the voice. So let's talk about vagus nerve. So everybody that's into science and healing world knows about the vagus nerve, the ventral vagal, and that what we need to have to be at our best heart rate variability, which which is one of the ways that we measure optimal health, is by stimulating the ventral vagal nerve. Well, all of the science shows that voice, first of all, is huge, so vocalizing in any way, humming, Any kind of vocalization is very effective in stimulating the ventral vagal. So that's going to help with all of our systems. Anytime we put sound tuning instruments on the body, they can scientifically measure brain waves. They can see heart rate variability. They can watch heart rhythms. So all this is really coming into the forefront now. And some of the people that... I could list for you to research. Shamani Jain, doctor, these are doctors, Dr. Shamani Jain, Dr. Chaudhry, Dr. Mitch Gaynor. There's all kinds of Western slash Eastern models. Traditional Chinese medicine has been measured forever. You know, they've been working on this. Acupuncture is part of this as well. I mean, all these systems go together to say this stuff is real. And then, of course, there's just the the effect of experiential too, that I could give you a lot of people that have had the experiential shift of utilizing sound and not just for peace, but that's definitely a huge part of it. Peace, parasympathetic nervous system response, the brainwave responses that help us to heal, all of those things. I put HRV monitors on my clients. I can see in real time what's happening to them as I'm working with them. So all of that is there, but the other stuff that experientially this is gonna probably really push us to the limit, but there's a new science called biofield. But the biofield is really just the aura of olden days. And so the biofield is this electromagnetic field around us that we can also work within. And Beverly Rubick, who is a NASA scientist, says that when trauma occurs, In the past, it actually gets stuck as frozen particles in the biofield. And I have had some amazing experiences and I have clients that could validate it of working in people's biofield where I've picked up on those frozen traumas because frozen trauma, when the body goes into a trauma response, what happens? Energy, right? Let's say that energy gets thwarted because of whatever. So I didn't get to fight. I didn't get to flee. So then that energy stays in me and the body doesn't remember. There's a million books. The body keeps the score. Body remembers. There's some amazing books out there that deals with all this. So that energy, energy never ceases to exist. So if the energy is still out there, let's say something happened when I was eight years old and I never was able I didn't get to cry about it I didn't get to release it when an animal gets traumatized in the wilderness they shake it off when they come when they get to release that energy it shakes out of them well let's say I didn't get to do that for whatever reason whatever my trauma story was it's still there and I can find that in the bio field and I can actually help the client to digest it to transform it along with an integrative approach of course with their therapist and other other modalities that don't just take it all on myself but yeah it's profound it's extremely profound and, and so much so that it just, every single time I have an experience like that with a client, I just can't even, I still can't believe it. I can't believe it. And I'm like, but I believe in all of this. So it's, it's amazing. It's amazing and overwhelming, but yeah, I can, I can list a hundred resources of books and, and articles and all kinds of things. But like you said,
SPEAKER_03:the most compelling is the stories that you've gotten to, To write with people, really. Yeah. When you speak of those sessions where you go in the biofields and you find that stuck energy, I'm assuming that just doesn't happen like overnight, like, okay, you know, or does it? Is it like 10 sessions in with a client, you get that deep with them or? It just depends.
SPEAKER_02:From a therapeutic perspective, I wouldn't just like throw the book at them of what I find, but I might find something the book you know at the beginning in one session it's very possible because we're not talk therapy there's there's you know it's not the neocortex it's not the talk part it's me finding the energy of it that's still stuck so um so that's very available um at any point in time but then of course how that plays out absolutely You know, I always go through and I look at what's the big picture here that we want to start working with? What do I want to offer? of like something that I found that I think that maybe they can, because you always want to titrate and integrate and, you know, all those things. So I'm very careful about that. And I've gotten better at it the more I've done it because I, you know, the more you do, the more you understand how those things work. So, you know, it's very possible that I can find some major, major significant things within the very first session. But then it just kind of depends on the person and whether they have, had a history of going to a therapist and all kinds of things as to how we integrate. And the actual integration process, part of it could be absolutely going to all of their other resources with some of the information I offer them. But some of it also is the vibrational integration that I'm helping to facilitate. So it's kind of a combined modality. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Creating that alignment,
SPEAKER_02:right?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. I got to tell you, as you were explaining that process, like something in me was just like, oh my gosh, that sounds so scary. Yeah. Like I would, I, I would like the experience with you, it would be so inviting, but the thing that immediately I was like, oh, I should do that. And then I was like, oh no, I shouldn't like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Yeah, I hear you. It could be scary for sure. And that's why... you know, everything is dependent upon the client and where they are and what they're, what they're ready for and what they're willing to be open to. And, and, and I, you know, when, if somebody comes to me and they're like, I just want to relax, I can do that too. You know, I can just do that. But if you're, if you're coming to me because you've got, you know, I'll, I'll give a couple of examples. So one person came to me with Meniere's tinnitus And so we worked within that realm. And at the end of the day, that particular session, that very first session, something spoke to me in the vibrational realm of energy that led me to ask him to go see a physician in dealing with prostate. And he ended up having tumor on his prostate. And, um, so that's one example. I've had an example of somebody that came in with really deep chronic. A lot of times it comes from a physical pain. People come to see me for, um, but, but the, the energy manifests in the physical. So somebody came into me with deep hip pain. And, um, what we discovered is some of that, some of that hip pain. And I would say potential. I never say, you know, I know this is what's happening. Cause that's not true. I don't know anything. I just offer what I find and then it's on them to discuss. for themselves or with me or with another therapist or healthcare provider. And so this particular hip pain had to do with some experience with her own childbirth of her children. And once that energy came out, and this is a great example of, I worked in the hip, I worked in her energy zone. We discovered specific ages where this vibration came. And so then she was able to go to her therapist right after that. had a pretty big, huge physical release and the pain was gone and it had been there for over 15 years. So, you know, so, so yes, stuff can come and, and, and it can sound overwhelming and frightening and, um, but if that's what you're coming for and if that's not what you're coming for, I'll give you what you're coming for. You know, if you just want to keep it super light and relaxing, and I often will talk about it as a sonic massage, you know, because if nothing else, you can get a really lovely parasympathetic response, allow your nervous system to quiet and calm, allow your brainwave state to move out of that just, you know, again, fluctuating thoughts and all of that stuff. So it's, it's always about what the client is desiring.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Before we move I have to tell you really quick because you mentioned acupuncture. Back in October when I hit my head and I went in a matter of like the three days that I couldn't remember how to get into my computer, I didn't know I'd be driving and I'd forget where I was going, those sorts of things. I went from, oh my gosh, I'm having a stroke because I've been on two days of hormone replacement therapy. which is ridiculous, but you know, you're like, I know something's wrong. Maybe that's it. And then I decided that maybe it was a migraine. And so I called my acupuncturist. I was like, Cheryl, please see me. And she got me in and, you know, did my, listen to my pulse, did a few other things. And like 10 minutes into the session, she said, did you hit your head this week? I think you have a concussion. And that like hitting my head, It was like four days ago. I hadn't thought a thing of it. And I am forever sold on modalities like this because I could have went to the emergency room and sat there all day. And they never would have said to me, did you hit your head on Thursday or on Tuesday? And so that's my own personal experience that when somebody knows what they're doing and they can listen to your body, they'll hear things that certainly I'm not hearing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. That's the, I love that. Yeah. And, and that's because vibration is, it carries information and that's where the, it's not new, but the newer idea of quantum physics has, has allowed people's ways of thinking to open and expand a little bit more because we want quantitative measurable, um, ideas but again this traditional chinese medicine acupuncture acupressure i mean that stuff has been happening for a really long time and um and i know we want to see the data and right so luckily that's that's happening
SPEAKER_03:yeah also uh before we move on i did want to highlight something that you said in the sound bath where you talked about that you are very careful not to use certain sound therapies with cancer patients could you speak to that and and why that would be a good fit?
SPEAKER_02:I wouldn't say that sound healing is not a good fit for cancer patients. It's one of those very careful, cautious modalities because of just some of the history of what has been discovered. And I'll tell you, my big go-to is there was a scientist who was Royal Rife, he was looking at how to help cure cancer with sound with vibration and frequencies. And so his data showed that, you know, like everything else, a cancer cell has a specific vibration. And if we bring in a vibration that actually is the same, it creates actually it destroys the, so at a certain amplitude, at a certain, with that same frequency at a certain amplitude, what he was finding is that it destroyed the cell. It destroyed the cancer cell. So kind of some big pictures, like crazy stuff that was happening. What he was also finding is that if a frequency that, there were other frequencies that could actually cause the cells to, grow and become more cells. Multiply. Yeah. So that's, that was, that put fear in me. I'll be honest. So I have worked with people with sound therapy from a very gentle, Hands off, not to try and go in and dig and do dirt digging. That's not what I do with people that have cancer because I don't want to be the person that creates more cancer cells. I want to help them with healing in a modality of helping through yoga therapy. Because I mix my sound in my yoga therapy. So through, you know, thought processes, through breath work, through movement practices, through some light, gentle sound, but nothing where I'm going to go in and be like, I'm going to drag this in and I'm going to put my forks on you. Because that just... it's just, that's a little too unknown because I don't have the technology to know what frequency, um, there's cancer, particular cancer is that. Yeah. Yeah. And interestingly, there is work still being done after that. Um, his particular studies, his whole laboratory got burnt to the ground. So there's all kinds of interesting things with that. Right. And you can read about all this Royal Reif. Um, but, but there's still, you know, things that have been coming continually and in the world of vibrational medicine for cancer and for other diseases. diseases so it's just time you know time will tell if these things come to the forefront of being able to be used i mean we have lithotripsy right that's the that's a great other modality to look at how lithotripsy brings in vibration to destroy stones right so that's the same kind of thing if we can figure out what the vibration is then we can actually destroy that particular entity without hurting anything else around them no no comorbidities with it But there's just still science and research to be done.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. I am mesmerized. I'm just like, oh my gosh, so many questions. And the awareness of how many applications this could help with, you know, that... It is certainly something, you know, I'm Western medicine, oncology, hospice, all of that. But certainly knowing that there are other alternatives out there. And so often when people have cancer, they are looking for anything that will give them a sense of control. And so even if you said, I can't really do anything for your cancer problem, But I could certainly help you with your fatigue. I could help you with your nausea. I could help you with your anxiety about the uncertainty of your illness. I mean, that is so therapeutic along with Western medicine that I can just see so many benefits to that. It's really... That's not on the script. I got to get back to the script.
SPEAKER_02:That is the yoga therapy model. IAYT is the governing body of yoga therapy. And the idea is that we are here to empower the individual in their own healing, not curing, through all of the modalities that we can offer them. Exactly what you just said so beautifully. So thank
SPEAKER_03:you. Thank you. Yeah, I don't think it has to be an either or. I think it would be a yes and. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:for sure. Yeah. So does everyone who attends a sound bath benefit from it? How does somebody know if it's been successful?
SPEAKER_02:Is that even a word that you would use? the out to say, you know, this work is for the intention of, of healing and harmonizing, but there could very well be something that does not resonate with you. And it might send you into a space that you're not ready to be in. And if that is the case, you can walk out. Like I, you didn't, I don't take anything personally. Cause that's not about me at all. That's the recovering performer part of me is that I recognize what I'm doing is not for me and not not to entertain and not to, you know, so it doesn't matter if, if it doesn't, I want it to resonate with everybody, but if it doesn't, it's just because it's not the time. It's not the modality at the moment, whatever it might be. So, um, I don't know about success or failure. It's more just, is this right right now? Um, and if it's not, that's okay. Fine. Find what is, you know, find what works for you and what feels good for you. But I would say, um, Most people find, if nothing else, some really lovely relaxation from coming to a sound bath. And they feel like they've taken a really great nap or something like that. A
SPEAKER_00:lot to be said for naps.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So you brought up this and I went... I did do my one and only experience with that. I did think I fell asleep, you know, and I don't remember falling asleep, but that I remember sort of becoming aware that I'm back in this room. And so I think that that may be something that a lot of people experience. But what would you say one of your most memorable transformations have been that you've seen through sound therapy? You've already mentioned a couple.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, wow. Yeah, I mean, some are where there's just these discoveries that people might think that they've worked through it. and they're not aware that they haven't fully worked through it because they've probably more likely stuffed it and suppressed it or something along. So these, there's just so many awakenings like that. And then there's awakenings that people don't even have a clue about ever even happened. You know, um, yeah, it's really hard. Definitely. If, if I've, if I've opened the door, which has, I don't want to say I, when the door has been opened through the therapy of sound healing for people to create healing in their lives. I mean, no matter what it is, it's amazing. Whether it just takes the hip pain away or is led to the discovery of the tumor or people begin to understand how to... be with their thoughts and how to shift their thoughts binaural beats you know I'm sure everybody's heard of those like that's a really great scientific one to pull in how it helps to shift the mind helps to restructure the neuroplasticity of the brain I don't know I don't that's too hard I can't I don't think I can answer that because every single one is magical even if it's just you know thank you for helping me to to feel relaxed because I don't get that in my day ever.
SPEAKER_03:Could I share the feedback from one of the people that was in our session? Of course. Because I think it's so eloquently said. She says, I had no idea what to expect, but decided to give it a try, and I will definitely do it again. Following Katina's guidance, I got comfortable, closed my eyes, and with the first vibrant tones, what we later learned were the sounds of crystal bowls, I felt transported to another world. I was worried I might fall asleep, but instead I experienced something deeper, a disconnect That's beautiful. She said she completely lost track of time and at one point, She said, I felt the need to shift my position. And you told us if we felt that, that we should do that. And she said, so I did. But even of that felt part of the experience. I don't fully understand the science behind it, but now I get what yoga teachers mean by being in the moment. Relaxation and presence don't come easily to me. But during that hour, I felt both. Isn't that amazing? That's amazing. Yeah. And I also think it's funny. Denny, she'll appreciate this. Judy came, which I was really nervous that Judy, my dear friend Judy, who was a kindergarten teacher for 30 years, I was really worried that she couldn't stay quiet for an hour. But she did great. And she was so excited because she came on the recommendation of one of her friends who said it was like tripping on LSD.
UNKNOWN:Oh.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Well, I've never tripped on LSD. Me neither. Me neither. Me neither. I don't think she has either, but you know, who doesn't want to take a trip? But I think that from my experience in talking to friends that have done it with me that time and other times, I do feel like that people do take, it is a journey. And the results and how people feel and what comes out of it is different. But the one thing that we all agreed on, it is a journey. Personally, I was in the front row this time instead of the back row last time. massive difference. Like the nearity to the instruments made a huge difference. Also, you said, you talked about, should we put our feet forward or our head forward? Do you want to speak on that a little bit? Because I don't remember exactly what you said, but based on what you said, I put my head forward.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, from an energetic system, our feet are the more grounded, rooted, which makes sense, right? From an energetic perspective, it's what we walk on or what we sit on the base of the spine. So kind of just in alignment with the chakra energies. So as we go from feet to crown, we go from more, um, gross body, you know, physicality, denseness up to more ethereal connected into universe God. And that's, that's the energetic pathways that's talked about in lots of traditions. Um, so I just said, if, are you feeling like you need to be more grounded, um, then turn your feet. Cause then that's going to receive the most vibrations from the ground up or if you're feeling like you want to be more in that like trying that part of what i think about with this is that we're just uniting our consciousness to to universe god divine right um so then allowing that to come in more it's going to hit the whole body but that's kind of what i think about
SPEAKER_03:yeah so based on that option i laid with my head head near the music this i saw i call it music i don't know it all it all felt music to me although we'll call it sound because I think that's more accurate but it was it was louder than I expected and I kept thinking is it this loud or is it just this loud in my head you know what I'm saying like and then you move from the crystal to the bowls and I don't know what you went to next right because well I would say our eyes are all closed is everybody closed their eyes or are people peeking
SPEAKER_02:Oh, people peek. It's really cute. And this is what they do. You'll be walking around, and they can tell when you're getting– not always, but a lot of times they can tell if I walk around, they're getting close. I'm getting close, so they'll, like, pop one eye open. It's so cute. And I'll just smile at them because they get really curious. Everybody's different. Some people are just gone, but, yeah. The more curious, they're like, what's she doing?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, I– See, I also think there's a deep trust in what you're doing that I just wanted to close my eyes and trust that you were going to come up with something amazing, which history has taught me that. But OK, so the crystal balls, it felt really loud. And then whatever you did next kind of was like startling. Like I physically kind of felt like I didn't jump, but like internally, I felt like I was jumping. And I just want to ask you, what was that about?
SPEAKER_02:I honestly don't remember what I did at this moment. But like I mentioned, I do try to create kind of a... that journey. And so, and everybody's different. What you respond to, you know, from your, your brain's memory of sound and your nervous systems connection to sound might be very, there's, you know, there's just some generalizations that I go by, but in general, it might, you know, who knows what your past history of sounds has created in your nervous system. So I can't say for sure, but I, but I do try to create that. I want to easy you in. I want to start here and then allow it to build where if there is some response that you've felt safe and you know you're going to move back into safety. which is a really beautiful resiliency builder for the nervous system as well. So it's kind of in a yoga practice, I do the same thing, I try to pull people in and out of sympathetic parasympathetic. And that's what HRV is, right, the ability to respond to stress. So yeah, so that it could have been in that space. So like, that's where some of the more what I call activating sounds might have been in that space at
SPEAKER_03:that point. And Denise, I have to tell you, and I guess I'm telling everybody who's listening, when you do open your eyes to all the instruments that Katina uses, you're like, holy cow. Yes. Holy cow. I mean, the number of bowls, bowls and other instruments. Yeah. I mean, how many do you think you had?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, gosh.
SPEAKER_03:What, that sound bath? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I probably had only like... Eight kinds of instruments. Eight kinds of instruments.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I will say, too, you brought up trust, Robin. And in the therapy world, it's not unusual for people who have had trauma, who have had grief, who are experiencing some significant psychological challenges, that closing their eyes is not comfortable. They do not want to. close their eyes it's scary for them frightening and so the fact that you were able to you know just elicit that trust in the group and then they were come and you know people peek that's okay as human beings but just the idea that i mean that had to have been a really um safe space for people to just be able to close their eyes and be vulnerable to whatever they were going to feel or hear or even experience.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you two don't know each other, but that is something that both of you have in common. You create this environment, at least for me. Personally, I guess I can't speak for everyone, but you all, you both have created this environment where I can be safe and I can be vulnerable. And even just thinking about it makes me want to cry. And some of that comes from shared experiences. Katina and I both lost our mom to cancer and I got to walk that journey with her. But aside from that, just... Trusting you both that, I don't know, I just have both felt like you're both healers in very different ways, but you've both helped me heal. So I don't think I'm alone in, and I don't think that happens by accident. I think that you both are really good at what you do, but also that you have practiced and studied and that that environment that you create does not happen by accident.
SPEAKER_00:thank you no it doesn't but it it's a two-way street we may know techniques skills that sort of thing but the client the patient the person who's come to see us has to be willing to go there also and be vulnerable and and know that this this sitting in my shit isn't going to be very comfortable. That's a common term we use in therapy. You know, that this is not going to be comfortable, but in the end, it's going to get me where I want to go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I will say one of the, because of the trauma process, understanding and knowledge that I've gotten the privilege of learning and understanding that, you know, I do at every, just, just to give people an awareness at every sound bath, I'll say things like, You know, if you want to keep your eyes open, that's perfectly acceptable. And I let them know that in my sound baths, I do not touch them. They may experience, if their eyes are closed, they may experience me walking around because I do do that. And if they don't want me near them, they can just look at me and give me a shake. So I set up the space in that way beforehand. I don't know if all sound baths do that. So that's something for people to to think about so thank you for bringing that up because if it's somebody that has that sense and they're going to go do a sound bath just to be aware that i i don't know how everybody does it you know um but it's very important to me that people are are fully aware that they can do whatever they need to do and that not to expect touch or you know eyes can be open there's always a little bit of lighting at least so it's not completely dark and just all those little pieces
SPEAKER_03:okay so for the person that isn't lucky enough to go to your sound bath is there is there are other ways that we can integrate sound therapy into our everyday lives
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's so funny. Like, you know, this new technology age where we were talking about ahead of time on Zoom, like Zoom isn't intended for anything really at the beginnings, but meetings. So it's a challenge to work in this particular realm when you're not in person, but it's very doable. So we can jump to quantum physics and say that if I'm in a different world state than you, a different country than you. I can still do sound therapy with you over It's called Distant Healing. So that's an option. And there are other people that do that as well. But there are also a million different recordings and different sound baths out there that people can listen to. One of my favorite free apps is called Insight Timer. And it's got just so much really great meditations and therapeutic applications and sounds and songs and frequencies. And so there's just so many places people can go to experience that in the digital world. But beyond that, we can create our own sound. And that's part of what I ask my clients to do. If you come see me for something in particular, I'm going to give you a specific Maybe there's stuff called toning or tuning, humming. There's all kinds of effects of humming, you know, nitric oxide boost and all these different things. You know, vagus nerve. So there's vibrations that we can make with our voice. And that's what led me to want to write that last training of embodying the voice. And we feel so... I could go so many directions of why we don't use our voice, but that's a beautiful tool for people just saying hum, chant, pray out loud. And at every level of thought, it's creating a vibrational frequency. So even if you're saying it in your mind, you can go that direction too. And then if you have the opportunity to do some drumming, You can buy a drum on Amazon for$5. And the drum is the heartbeat of us. It is our heartbeat. It's what we hear when we're in the womb. We hear our mother's heartbeat. And so to do some drumming, drum circles, those are fabulous. So get a drum. That's super easy. It could be super cheap. If you have an opportunity to buy one bowl,
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_02:bowls range from not very expensive to super, super, super expensive. You know, just incorporating any kind of music that you can in your life from your own body, but also experientially listening and being really aware of the music that you're listening to. So if you're somebody who loves music, you know, I'm not going to put down any kind of music, but there is... There are studies about how certain musics affect us at a biological level and a biopsychosocial level. So finding music that you appreciate the lyrics and you feel joyful or whatever it is, just really be aware of how it makes you feel. And what emotions come and what thoughts come as you're listening to whatever kind of music you're choosing to listen to. So there's just, there's a ton of ways.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. One of the questions I selfishly was going to ask you was like, is there something that parents or grandparents could do to start integrating sound therapy? But you answered that. Like, that's why we sing to our children, right? Yes. Yes. My granddaughter, who's 13 months yesterday, has previously hated getting into the car. And like, she's a big girl for 13 months, and she like gets stiff and won't get in. And so they asked the parents' teacher, like, do you have any advice on how to get her in her car seat without, you know? four hands and a lot of pressure. And she said, yeah, just create a song. And every time she gets in the car, sing the same song. It has been utterly a game changer. And it's like, Luca gets a car treat, Luca gets a car. That's the song, you know, something like that. But we're all like, How is this like a miracle? It's like a literal miracle that you sing this one line song to her and she just gets in her car seat. So I don't know. I don't know if that's a silly example, but it's. Oh, it's perfect. It's a perfect example. It's really been a game changer because Maddie has been like, I really need to go to Target, but I don't know if I can get her in her car seat. So a little song, a little treat. There you go. Okay, as we end our time together, you're going to just give us a little demo of what sound therapy might feel, look like, sound like. But before you do that, Katina, can you tell people if they want to connect with you, if they want to participate in a sound bath, if they want to explore sound therapy one-on-one with you, where do they find you?
SPEAKER_02:Um, multiple places. I am right here in my, my home space. This is my home studio and I have all my sound equipment here. I'm in Fayette, Missouri at breathe at JJ's folly. So you can go to my website, breathe at JJ's folly and get my phone number and my email and all that stuff. Um, but also in Columbia. So if you're in the Columbia area, I met Wilson's fitness and I do wellness coaching, yoga therapy, sound therapy there as well. So you could go on there. onto that website and pull up my email and everything there. So either, either place. And also I do, I do things on zoom. So if, if there's, if you're not in either of those places and you want to do something on line, I can do that as well.
SPEAKER_03:And I'll be the first to highly, highly recommend it. An hour with Katina is sort of magical. Thank you. All right. Well, thanks for being our guests and we're going to close out our time with just a little bit of sound. Yeah, lovely. So
SPEAKER_02:I just kind of thought, let's just hear a few of the different sounds that I have just sitting around me right now. One of my favorites are the Koshi chimes. And these are representative of the nature of the different elements, the five elements. One of the things we mentioned was the heartbeat and the drum. So this is a Native American drum. The heartbeat, heart rhythm. My favorites is the ocean drum. So this is gonna be maybe a bit loud, so you might have to filter, but it's just magical. into the sound of rain or the ocean. Next I have a Tibetan bowl. It's a crystal pyramid. A crystal bowl. And my personal favorite, the flute. This is a Native American flute.
SPEAKER_03:What a perfect ending to a perfect episode. Thanks for listening to the podcast. We're honored you're sharing your day with us.
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